Judging by eye or by camera, which is best?

Here is my take on eye judging compared to camera judging!

Eye judging:
The judge positions himself approximately where he thinks dog will land and lines up banner on both sides to make sure he has right angle to judge where he thinks dogs tail enters the water. As long as judge does this for every dog the same way then it makes it fair judgements and it is fair for everyone. The judge is like a home plate umpire in baseball that tries to give his best educated attemp to call balls and strikes. Not everyone agrees with him but he calls it like he sees the pitches. I'm sure if Major League Baseball thought cameras were better it would change over to make it a fairer game. The angle is what is important in judging pitches and the umpire which has seen tens of thousands of pitches has the best educated guess.
Camera judging:
The camera is placed at the 17 foot mark at every event. The object is to try and set it 35 feet away from the pool perpendicular so the angle is the same at every event. The program that links the camera to the computer to get the measured distance was developed by ESPN Winter Games to measure downhill skiing jumps. The program was developed to use the angles of 2 or more cameras to adjust for deflection of jumping off of center of ski hill. Organizations that use the camera and computer for judging only use 1 camera so how can they have the exact jumping distance? When dogs enter the water a big splash is around the entrance point and most of the camera judges have to guess where the entrance point really is. We have tried to use the camera at a few of our events and decided that having a judge that measures the same for everyone is the best way to go.

I told Beth if 1 single MLB umpire can call balls and strikes to batters that get paid $20 million, why can't 1 single "judge" call dog jump distances to dogs that get paid.... nothing?

Are 2 judges better than one? Well, you might get a little better look having 2 extra eyes on it, but this isn't rocket science either.

I'll also add that I don't believe anyone, whether it is a single person judging, or 2 people, or with camera, can distinguish a jump that is 1" farther than another dog. You just call as close as you can and go with it.

Think about football for a minute they have as many as 3 referees and who knows how many line judges etc. Do they ever get the ball placement exactly where the players believe it should be? In a sport that can come down to as little as an inch one judge that is physically looking at the pool and measurement markers is the best way to go. Even at events where they use the camera I.E. Purina/Carsons they still only have ONE person determining the distance.

I see the benefits of both.

Eye:
As long as the same judge is used for the entire event or even splash then whatever their technique it will be fair for everyone. However, if the judge is changed during a splash that could be an advantage or disadvantage for the competitors depending on the new vs current judges technique. They all have slightly different techniques and they are all "correct" enough for what they are trying to do. It may not be what I see when I am guessing the distnace but I'm not the judge so my opinion doesn't count. The judge is the one who has to decide the distance based on experience and I don't have the experience.

Camera:
Once the camera is calibrated and as long as it's not moved during the event then whatever the distnaces are are fair for everyone. It may be off by 3" but it will be off by the same amount for everyone. There will be a slight variation on distances because of the person who is doing the measuring but if the person is experienced in doing this then that should also be consitent. Since the camera system is actually measuring pixels there will also be a slight (very slight) variation in the final distance based on where the pointer is clicked. It is a bit more objective because there is a playback but in the end it's no better or worse than an experienced manual judge.

The camera system vs manual judge will never be decided because everyone has a perference. If you know the technical aspects of teh camera system you realize it's still subjective and very dependent on the camera being the the exact correct location and not being touched AT ALL after calibration. How many people that have been at a UAD event think the camera would survive an entire event without being moved by someone walking by, a kid trying to get to the pool, a dog walking into it, etc. You can rope off the area but unless you have a person sitting there it will get touched.

Some manual judges measure a little longer than others and that is where keeping the same judge for the entire event comes in. If not having the same judge for the entire event then they should be kept for the entire splash they are judging. I have seen a judge change during splashes and that I think is not good for the competitors. It hasn't happened very often but it has. That would be my only complaint about the manual judging.

Another issue is, if the camrea is 35' away from the pool no one can be standing along the side of the pool between the camrea and pool. Maybe the camrea events don't have crowds, but I can't see a UAD event that would not have people along the side of the pool.
Where would the camera have gone at DuPage??? Bleachers on one side and the stables on the other.

So, the 26 and 27 foot jumpers in the other organizations that use cameras may not be acheiving that kind of distance? Or they are actually jumping farther than they are estimated?

not pot sturring just speculating.

Hi Jim and Jeff. we are all online together..haha

Maddysdad wrote:So, the 26 and 27 foot jumpers in the other organizations that use cameras may not be acheiving that kind of distance? Or they are actually jumping farther than they are estimated?

not pot sturring just speculating.

I think what it comes down to is that every system is accurate to a certain degree. The camera system can be thrown off if it is calibrated and then slightly moved after the fact. Eye balling is only as good as the judges perception. If the dog jumps a lot smaller or a lot bigger than the judge is expecting, then the judge is more likely to be off on the distance due to standing in an incorrect location.

This debate has been argued many times over and probably always will be.

This topic would be best discussed over beer and wings.

John,
You have been to enough events that you can tell me, how far would this be judged in a "normal" event. I see the dogs feet splashing the water around 23.5 feet. How about you? Did that dogs rear really stay out of the water for another 4.5 feet? Look the video up on Youtube!

I ahve been to a camera event and stood by the pool and watched. Now I can't tell the difference between 23'6" and 23'9", but I CAN tell the difference between 18" and 3'8" which was the case at one event, and I saw dogs jumping around 16' that were getting 17+.
Every system is only as good as the person responsible for the decision.

John,

When and where for the beer and wings?

I looked and I doubt it was 28' looks closer to 24-25 the camera looks to be at about 17' so the angle makes it look longer.

The video of Henry's jump, can you see the entry point of the dog or do you have to guess? The majority of video recorded jumps are guessed at by a person that has never jumped dogs in this sport! I think to have an idea of where the dog is to measured at you need to understand the sport. Dogs hardly ever skid more than a few inches from where they originally hit the water.

in the end - it still is the human 'eye' that gives the distance. Whether that is off a screen or 'live'. Both situations can be off by inches either way.
If the camera is stationary at 17' then how could it measure MY dog who jumps 'only' 8-10'?? The camera can't get the point of entry at that distance accurate either!!!!
I still go with this thought....."WHO CARES"!! the dogs don't know if they jump 2" or 22'. only the human(s) do. The dogs are the athletes in this sport not the humans. If you give your dog the praise they deserve for doing something you have asked of them (jumping off a dock after a toy) then they deserve a "good job" for ANY distance. But when this sport becomes ALL about the distance and a couple of inches, and what system of measurment is best / better and what dog is the winner then in MY opinion the fun has been taken out. And I am not just saying that be/c my dog is a Novice/Junior jumper - I KNOW I would feel the same way if I had an Ultimate Division jumper.

I watched the video with a careful eye and then realized that I could pause the spot on entry. Even with the angle and giving a liberal judgement it actually looks shorter. I'd say 22'8" at the tail. MAybe better than 23 but that dog is not 5+ feet long to be given credit for a 28 foot jump. thats just me.

I am what I am and that's all that I am.

I have been with Ultimate Air Dogs going on 3 years next year, I have met alot of great dogs and met alot of great owners/handlers as well!! I have learned so much, enjoyed doing something more then just playing ball and going for a walk with my dogs. I have spent lots of quality time with my dogs training & conditioning them to reach higher divisions and still have them thoroughly enjoy thier life so far. Because of my of the enjoyment I have for dock jumping I adopted Oberon from the SPCA in Kalamazoo. He had been there for a year and a half and no one wanted him, in addition I will be getting my 3rd dock dog next year.

I enjoy having my dogs get good air and jump in the higher divisions due to thier training and conditioning to put on a good show for the for the families that come to be entertained. Koko and Oberon get so excited when they come to play and I know they enjoy and live for the the praise that they get from Dave and I.

The reason I posted this thread was not to trash another organization but to let everyone know that the camera measured jumps are not any more accurate than the eye measured jumps. The computer generated scores are marked by where a human decides to mark the jump by looking at a computer screen with stop action. He then tries to find the spot through the splash where he thinks the dogs tail breaks the water. The splash usually hides the exact spot and the human then has to guess where to mark the spot. Splashdogs probably has the best camera system it was developed especially for dock jumping but it still has the same problems with the splash. Dockdogs camera system was designed for downhill skiing using 2 or more cameras for accurate measurements.

LynnSWD wrote:I still go with this thought....."WHO CARES"!! the dogs don't know if they jump 2" or 22'. only the human(s) do. The dogs are the athletes in this sport not the humans. If you give your dog the praise they deserve for doing something you have asked of them (jumping off a dock after a toy) then they deserve a "good job" for ANY distance. But when this sport becomes ALL about the distance and a couple of inches, and what system of measurment is best / better and what dog is the winner then in MY opinion the fun has been taken out. And I am not just saying that be/c my dog is a Novice/Junior jumper - I KNOW I would feel the same way if I had an Ultimate Division jumper.

I hear ya Lynn!!! I feel the same way All I know is my boys love to do this and I have made some amazing friends that I now call family because of this and to me that is all that matters! Do I get excited when they jump big of course I do but I also praise and love them when they don't cause bottom line is they did what I asked of them.

I am not a big fan of change, I like things the way they are at UAD competitions. Having cameras there would take the fun out of it for me. From what I have seen, the dogs a far more consitant at hittnig the good air for a long distance jump!! I wish I was half as consistant as Koko and Oberon are. I am amazed at how good they are at doing what they do.

Yes!!!! I agree 100% with Lynn. I have a senior jumper and a novice jumper and they both have fun and so do I! A couple of inches either way is not a big deal. And yes the gift certificates are nice when you place in the top 3, but the day I have to depend on my dogs to buy my groceries is the day I need to stop competing with my dogs.

With Frodo's help, I once developed a fool-proof method of measurement.I took one of those retractable tape measures,glued a rubber bulb to the end of it,and put it in Frodo's,er...measurement area.
Well, he took off with a beautiful,arcing jump,and I watched the metal tape sail out after him...ten feet...twenty feet...THIRTY feet!
I was so excited, I accidentally hit the "rewind" button,and he came zipping back in.
Little booger chased me 1.15 miles. I know exactly how far he chased me,because that dang measuring tape was bouncing along behind him.

Frodad, that is HILARIOUS. Very ingenious invention.

There are obviously benefits and drawbacks to both systems, but I honestly prefer eye-judging as opposed to using a camera and computer monitor. One of my main reasons for this preference, however, is not accuracy based... it is quickness of results. I dislike having to wait for sometimes several dogs down the line until hearing my dog's score/distance. I feel that such delays take away a lot of the fun/excitement from the sport. For a computer monitor review (especially one based off a one-camera setup) to be taken to its full advantage, one would need a more significant amount of time to review/pause/replay/etc. the jump. However, if you want more quickly announced distances, it really becomes even less accurate because the judgment may be rushed as a result.

On the one judge vs multiple judges bit... UAD has had events in the past where there were two, and a few times even three, judges working at a time. Of course, this isn't the norm and hasn't happened in awhile, but it has been done.

Milt wrote:The video of Henry's jump, can you see the entry point of the dog or do you have to guess? The majority of video recorded jumps are guessed at by a person that has never jumped dogs in this sport! I think to have an idea of where the dog is to measured at you need to understand the sport. Dogs hardly ever skid more than a few inches from where they originally hit the water.

Oh, take my word for it. I guessed. I guessed big time.

in the video are they judgeing to the tail or to the nose if its the nose and the dogs rear goes in at the 23.5-24 ft mark that would make it closer to the 28 ft mark at the nose depending on the lenght of the dog