Pointing Dog Questions

I know the answer is only a few clicks away with Google but I figured I would ask here and not do my own due diligence.

For the past month we have had a ton of birds around the yard and the neighbors homes. Both Jake and Gunther have been pointing them and holding it for a while and then they slowly move towards the bird until they get rather close and then they take off after them. They have no hunt training (perhaps Gunther did before he ended up at the shelter) so I am wondering if that is what they are supposed to do. Are they supposed to flush them out and then I would shoot (if I were a hunter)? Is that what they are doing or are they just trying to catch them?

Pointing dogs are supposed to hold until the sun doesn't shine any more or until they are released by the handler. Some pointing dogs are taught to "get it up" but some hunters prefer to have a flusher or lab of some sort to get the bird up.

Or if you are like us we have the best of both worlds we have Sky a natural pointer with a flushing instinct. She is a pointing lab which is totally different than your shorthairs I am guessing and from what I have been told they are a lot better for a full day of hunting, most consider pointing labs to be a "heartier lab" one that can take being hunted for ten hours plus a day. That is why I can take sky and run her for two hours straight at full speed and she is up and ready to do it all again after a twenty minute rest.

But to answer your question your dogs are just following instinct. I have a friend who has English setters who will point a blowing leaf because it resembles the movement of a running bird. So you will find as they start pointing if the instinct is there they will start pointing sometimes for hours unless the bird moves, as this is what they are breed for.

Hope you can make sense of my nonsense!

just trying to catch them. A dog will point its prey by instint and will try to catch its prey by instint. What they are doing is creeping. It happens even with the best of pointing breeds. Teaching them to stay on point and not flush or to flush on command is the hard part. just about any dog with pointer in its blood will point or "flash point" After I get my titles on Bo I will be teaching him to flush on command on wild birds because I hunt alone in the grouse woods and would prefer to set up for a shot and let the dog flush it. On liberated birds that dont fly well this isnt a good thing to do. Some people shoot a little low and I dont want my dog getting shot

Thanks guys!

Matt-
The one thing that I don't totaly agree with what Team Sky wrote was that the pointing dogs should relocate to the bird if the bird has started to move on them.

If you do end up doing some searching online you will find a big difference in the everyday hunters and the field trial people with the pointing dogs. What I have found to be the BIGGEST difference is that the people doing the Field Trials and hunt test want their dogs to be staying on point through the bird flushing (wing) and the bird being shot... (the term used is steady through wing and shot incase you do some searching and find that)

The people who are the every day hunters, preserve owners, guide dog owners etc. tend to be a bit different. They don't want the dogs to necisarily flush the bird but they also tend to encourage the dog to follow the bird after a flush so that if the bird just gets winged and is just injured but not killed the hunter doesn't loose that bird. If a dog is stead(not moving) until the bird is shot and on the ground there can be many lost birds. We just had one that happened last weekend that got away because I didn't let Moose follow it to where it landed and it was lost.

I have yet to decide what side of the fence I am going to be on with our dogs......

Oh the above was written by Beth. She didn't realize I was logged in.

Do your dogs do this?.....

If they are pointing one of these birds they sometimes slowly turn their head to look at me and then they get back to the bird.

Sorry I forgot to mention if the bird is running or moving they are supposed to be able to follow it and find it. In the UKC upland test this is called trailing or tracking. They simulate a wounded bird by dragging a pheasant through the field and the dog is supposed to follow it and find it. But if the bird does not move they should not move unless told to do so by the handler. If they do they will need to be broken of that habit.

But from the experience I have had with most pointing dogs is the tracking and repositioning is often very hard for the dogs to learn but it comes as the dog gets over more birds in a simulated hunting situation.

Like Beth said if a bird is wounded you want the dog to follow it, find it, and bring it back. (this can be where force fetch is useful, but don't say that to some other people on the forum, this is especially important if it is a wild bird and it is pecking at the dog when the dog picks it up. If the dog has not been force fetched 9 times out of ten it will leave the bird and not tell you where it is, and on a running wounded bird you are "stuck up a creek without a paddle" when you are trying to find the bird.)

Sorry Beth, I forgot to cover all the bases! Oops! Thats why you are on the forum.

TR75 wrote:Do your dogs do this?.....

If they are pointing one of these birds they sometimes slowly turn their head to look at me and then they get back to the bird.

Not Very often. I have had 5 minute conversations with a trainer while bo was pointing a bird and he stayed on point the whole time. (we were done for the day and was headed in he found one that didnt fly very far) He will look at me when I go in to flush on occasions. They are just young (new to birds) excited and waiting for dad to come see what they found would be my guess. That is where the training and "staunchness of point" comes in. This a lot of times comes with confidence in their job. Think about the first frisbee they tried to catch or hurdle to jump. they new what you wanted but I am sure they were more timid about how to get it done.

As far as force fetch. I dont think anyone was meaning to say that force fetch training in the old traditional Toe hitch or ear pinch method doesnt work. It just might not be the right way for all dogs and there is more than one way to accomplish it. I understand it and have used it in the past but I now own a breed that method just isnt very effective. I just wanted to point out that the link that was posted isnt the only way to come to the same ends.

Good info everyone.

If you ever take Gunther out in the field you more than likly will see the total difference in the pointing. Moose loves to point the robins on the fence and see how close he can get but take him out to the field and he LOCKS on point as soon as he smells that bird.

I would really encourage you to find a preserve down where you are and introduce Gunther to birds. I am sure you could train Jake to hunt as well but it will be more natural to Gunther. Here in Michigan preserves closed the last day of April but we have a friend who owns a preserve and he will still allow us to plant birds and work the dogs just not shoot them. It then also gives the land some more "wild" birds. Plus we can always work the residuals from last hunting season whenver we want as well.

Get some pictures of those boys pointing the little birds. That would be cute to see!

Everyone has posted great info on pointing breeds and I just have to jump in.

We also have two Brittany's in the immediate family (my brothers dogs), both are about 6 years old and have been over many hundreds of birds. They are natural bred pointers and point virtually every bird they "see". They spend lots of time in the backyard pointing robins, bluejays, etc and trying to stalk them to see if they can get closer. I agree with Beth once you put the dog in the field over pheasant, quail, chukar, partridge or any other game bird you will probably see a definite difference.

One of the Brits will actually lock up on point very early as soon as she winds a bird and will NOT move until we move ahead of her. The other one will reposition if the bird is moving on him but he is incredibly staunch on point as well once the bird has stopped moving. In most field trial situations the dog is allowed to reposition if the bird is moving.

As for UKC upland trials, they do want the dog to "stop and sit"
until after the bird is shot, and this is more of a practical thing as they don't want the dog to be shot if the bird is not a high flyer. I am not sure how I feel about this as I like Beth do not want that bird to be lost if it is wounded and goes down. I have been debating about entering Sky in an Upland test but if the requirement is that she stop and sit on flush, that would probably be a fail as she does not sit, but she watches the bird until it falls before going after it. I think for a hunting dog sitting on the flush might be counterproductive.

I too agree with Beth, get Gunther over some really "smelly" pheasants or chukar and you may see a totally different pointing instinct.

For the force fetching issue, I will remain mute, as I said earlier in other posts, I believe it is required for most dogs in order to get a consistent effective retrieve. I will not however debate the methods used as there are those on the board that seem to disagree and feel that force fetching is not required.
I personally believe that SKY would not retrieve the way she does if she had not been force fetched. As it is now she is a retrieving machine.

ginger pointed her first bird yesterday well not really

I was walkong her in the yard and all of a sudden something caught her eye it was a tiny bird she pointed waited about 20 secs tops the baby bird opened its beak and ginger licked it lol (kodac moment) little did i relize i looked up and there was moma bird watchin in the tree sitten on her other babies i guess. I made ginger leave it and go bac to the house.

Gingers Dad wrote:ginger pointed her first bird yesterday well not really

I was walkong her in the yard and all of a sudden something caught her eye it was a tiny bird she pointed waited about 20 secs tops the baby bird opened its beak and ginger licked it lol (kodac moment) .

That would've been a great picture of Ginger

Indy will sometimes point birds too, he also has zero prey drive, he won't make a move in their direction, just watches until I call him off. I think its part instinct part fascination.

MOOSE wrote:Get some pictures of those boys pointing the little birds. That would be cute to see!

It took me long enough. I finally remembered to grab the camera when I let them go outside. Gunther used to race out the door and go flying off the deck. Now he takes his time and looks for the little birds before slowly walking down the stairs. I got two good shots of Gunther but Jake was off doing something else.

He is pointing a fat Robin sitting on the fence at the end of the yard. He paid no attention to me as I walked around to get the second shot.

Wooohooo you definately have something to work with

TR75 wrote:Do your dogs do this?.....

If they are pointing one of these birds they sometimes slowly turn their head to look at me and then they get back to the bird.

Yes, 2 of mine have/do... they are waiting to see if you are going to flush the bird or not. The only one of mine that does not is my smooth Vizsla May. She hunts for herself and couldn't care less what my plans are.

TR75 wrote:
He paid no attention to me as I walked around to get the second shot.

Oh hes paying attention to you look at his ears I will take a upland dog who pays attention to me over one who doesn't any day.
As Thom said you have one you could work with there. I feel if the dog has the natural ability and the desire to work with its owner hunt training is a breeze compared to most sports.

I am no hunter and I figured he wasn't either. That was the only explanation (other than maybe his size) I could come with as to why his owner never came to claim him at the shelter. He also knew what the e-collar was the first time I put it on him during obedience training. It was as if he had worn one before.

Sometimes they get ruined by to much pressure at to young of an age. That doesnt mean he cant hunt just needs to trust his owner to let him do it. I think a lot of good hunting dogs are pushed to hard when they are young and the fun goes out of it.

You have a heck of a bird dog in the making there matt! What a nice picture. I would be proud of that one! Find your local NAVDHA chapter or pheasants forever and get that dog out on some real birds! Doesn't matter if you are a hunter or not. The first time your dog is running full tilt and just about falls over from stopping and turning so hard to get on point you will be hooked!

I will do that Beth. I figured that I needed to be a hunter too.

A lot of the birds around the house are doves for some reason. I don't recall them last year. I think they are doves because they look just like Jake's DFT.

hey dove hunting is popular in a lot of states......If you ever come up this way for an event...I can get some quail and he can take him out. Besides since I got a bird dog I am much more of a hunter than a shooter lol