Hunt Test this Weekend

How much time and training do you have with sky for field testes.I have been told that ginger would probably do well with it but i dont know if i have the time to train her even with her good iinstink.

We have roughly 3.5 months of professional field traning into Sky, along with working with her on our own for at least 4 hours a week on distance retrieves (100+ yds to 300 yds in the water). Sky has also been over 500 pheasents so she has had plenty of working to get to where she is at now for these tests.

I would also suggest if you were to look at doing field trials I would force fetch your dog. And personally I could not force fetch my dog that is part of the reason sky was professionally trained. In talking with the trainers at the event this weekend I only saw one dog that was not force fetched, and it did not pass the trial.

The other thing you need to remember is there is alot of shooting at these events. The shots are less than ten feet from the dog, and if the dog breaks the retrieving line they fail! So if ginger has never been shot over you would have alot!!! of training to do before I would suggest spending the money for a field trial run.

Also they use real ducks I don't know if that would bother ginger, yet again another reason to have your dog force fetched if you are a hunter.

If you have any other questions about the field trials let me know we learned alot this weekend.

For those of us who are not as well versed on the subject as you guys are , what does "forced fetched" mean?

labpaw wrote:For those of us who are not as well versed on the subject as you guys are , what does "forced fetched" mean?

Here ya go:
http://www.fetchpup.com/forcefetch.htm

Thanks! Very informative!

Force fetch has many usses as a term but I use it loosely and teach it in a soft method

If you are going to compete in field trials full force fetching is imparitive in the later stages of the trials. Especially in UKC terms when you reach the level of Finished. And for many dogs that I have watched being force fetched there is no soft or kind method to the training. It is often painful for the dog (and the owner) at first but well worth the reward for the dog and the handler.

I disagree there are other ways than to hitches, pinching, Harsh corrections, boarding ect. I use a method of making them hold the bird for progessive lenghts of time. useing a reward for doing it for me. It might take a little more time but works for me and a softer dog.

After seeing what BT said in an earlier post regarding force fetching I have to chime in. SKY was forced fetched although our trainer is a great professional who employs a gentler force fetching method utilizing rewards as well. Force Fetching is not something that I would recommend to a novice trainer, first because it is difficutl and second because if done imporperly or too rapidly it can be detrimentla to the dog.

With all that said, BT is correct, in the Seasoned and Finished levels of the UKC trials the dog must return to the line and deliver the bird to the hand of the handler. Dropping the bird at the handlers feet is not acceptable and will be considered a fault.

If you are interested in the requirements of the trials check out the UKC website under Hunting Retreiver Club. The marshals at the event to this weekend in Wisconsin were extremely helpful. I will say here for the record that you are dealing with a different group of people. A large numbe of these individuals are professional trainers/handlers that are doing these trials so that they can market their dogs for breeding purposes and for selling pups. Almost everyone was helpful and informative but it took a little to get them to start talking to us and giving us the information that we needed.

One key point that I will throw out here is that in order to compete in the trial the handler must be dressed in full camoflauge and you will need to have a duck call in order to begin the trial. We did not know that as it is not in the instructions on the website. The website does reference Camo but does not indicate that it must be full camo (head to toe).

Please feel free to ask us more questions as BT said we learned an incredible amount and felt very priviledged to watch the seasoned and finished handlers with their dogs.

Brian Sr.

Glad you learned a lot. I didnt mean I disagreed that force fetch is needed to compete at the top levels. I just meant that the OLD toe hitch - ear pinch methods are not the only way to accomplish it. I would like to think we are getting beyond using that type of training on all our dogs. Even those of us hunters that supposedly use archaiec methods of training.

Just wanted to note that there are actually books out now from some big name clicker trainers on training for field trials.

Force fetching is definitely not required for retrieving training... whether is be for field, obedience, SchH, whatever. I and many others have used several other methods (including shaping, PR, RMs, etc.) with just as much success and reliable results.

To each their own.

Thanks for your input and advice Kel. Being a novice, I am definitely not in your league as a professional trainer. That is of course why I had the dog professionally trained by a reputable and well known trainer here in West Michigan, Mr. John Johnston, who works primarily with bird dogs, both retriever and pointing breeds.

Hi all... Brian great advice given to Bob, Ginger's Dad. BTW, you guys need to get your own usernames having a hard time knowing who is who.

From what I'm reading it seems like there needs to be clarification between a Field Trail and a Hunt Test. Because Field Trails is a whole different game.

If you are talking about Field Trails.... Force Fetch is an absolute must. Without FF as a solid foundation, hang it up. If fact, if FF is taught incorrectly you can seriously mess up the dog's career. Force Fetch is one of the basic foundations in training a successful Field Trail dog, along with collar conditioning. I'm sure Sky was taught FF with her Pro.


Barb and Rock

Force fetching was thought to be an absolute must for a long time in the obedience, SchH, Assistance Dog, etc. worlds too. Over time (especially within the past 10 yrs or so) it's been found that FF isn't a necessity, no matter what the venue. Dogs are still getting the same scores and higher with differing methods. Yes, it does work. And yes, there are MANY trainers out there who still employ the method (whether in its original or a modified form). Either way, I have seen just as reliable and competitive results obtained using other methods. That's my point. I am not debating (nor am I going to debate) the method itself vs others... only stating that there are now other options out there. Each handler/trainer needs to make the decision on what to use based on their own dog's learning style, temperament, drive, etc.

There is no one-size-fits-all in dog training (I cannot stress that line enough ). Heck, some methods can be highly detrimental when applied to individual dogs which they do not fit well.

True, FF is still widely used in the hunt test and field trial circles. Still, that doesn't mean it is the best or the only option for a dog. Use what you feel is best for you and your pup.

Again, to each their own.

Team Sky, just out of curiousity... is the John Johnston you're talking about also into French Ring? I know there is a guy by his name who has done a few FRing seminars.

The only other thing I could find on him is an ad he placed looking for a home for his personal hunting dog named Jedi. He mentioned that Jedi is force fetched and collar conditioned. So, I'm assuming that is likely the methods he employs, unless Jedi was trained by another.

Once again, to each their own.

I will jump in also. I trained trial Golden Retrievers for 12 years and as everyone knows GRs are soft dogs, compared to the Labs. I FF all of my dogs and Collar trained them also.
BUT
every dog was trained differently, some only needed to have light gum pinching and gentle ear work, others were harder and need more forceful training, the same for the collar.

ANY training method needs to be tailored to the individual dog and the trainer needs to be very in tune with the dog to pick up just what the dog needs to keep from breaking the dog. I have watched bad handlers fry their dogs into usless animals, scared of their own shadows.

That is why it is a really good idea, if you are serious about trialing, not to just have your dog trained, but spend time with several different trainers watching what they do and how they handle different dogs. I worked with 4 different trainers in the first 3-4 years I was running dogs to help build experience and get ideas.

Jim

wow thanks for all the great info.I have just been kicking around the idea.the Breeder that ginger came from just got done training with gingers older brother with a reputablke trainer here in va who is Also gingers father owner.SHe had mentioned that if i decieded to start with ginger she would introduce us and maybe go to a couple field trial events. Its something to think about .i have started throwing gingers favorite mallord across the pond and getting her to jump in go acrosss and come straight bac its fun to watch her on the other side looking bac wanting me to direct her when she loses it it the tall grass.

I guess working with the breed I work with now. I have changed my ideas on what to do in training. I agree with Kel there are just as effective methods available at both ends of the scale and what works for one dog may not another. I just have seen the toe hitch and other methods deployed and seen dogs wash out from it. I think it might have its place just not for all dogs. I only wanted to offer a different look at it because the link that was posted Didnt suggest any other method.

jtallen wrote:spend time with several different trainers watching what they do and how they handle different dogs.

Good advice, Jim. I definitely second that. Spending time with several different trainers (especially if they come from varying backgrounds and even if they hold contrasting opinions regarding training) and observing their methods, handling styles, etc. will really help in both the long and short run in training, handling, and trialing. And, even if an individual's training methods/style does differ from your own... you can still sometimes learn things from each other. Either way, you need to still keep in mind and employ what is best for you and your dog. Don't ever do something just because someone tells you it is the best or only way to go. Just because something is a "proven" method or a trainer shows you that it has "worked with their dog and others" doesn't mean it is the best route for you. Again, there is no one-size-fits-all training. Do your homework and "test out" various trainers, groups, etc. and figure out what is the best fit for you both as a team.

And, if you do decide to send your pup to "puppy training camp," and the trainer or group is not willing to let you observe any phase of training before you make your final decision... find someone/someplace else. Trainers should be open to questions and willing to show you how exactly it is they are going to train/guide you and/or your dog. Heck, even before I got Aro from his breeder I watched her handle his mother (although that was mainly to evaluate her as a working dog). Still, you can learn a lot about a person and the training they do just by watching them handle a few dogs (and I'd recommend asking to see dogs at varying levels of training, too, if at all possible). You can also ask specific questions... like, "if a dog is having such-and-such an issue in training, how would you approach/correct that?" Etc. etc. etc.

There is an old saying that goes, "put three trainers in a room together and, when they come out, the only thing any two will agree on is that the other is nuts!"

More importantly...!

Best of luck to Thom and Bo, Sky and her three humans, Bob and Ginger, and anyone else who is getting into field/hunt work! Hopefully we'll be seeing some big brags from you all in the near future.

ROCK wrote:

From what I'm reading it seems like there needs to be clarification between a Field Trail and a Hunt Test. Because Field Trails is a whole different game.

If you are talking about Field Trails.... Force Fetch is an absolute must. Without FF as a solid foundation, hang it up. If fact, if FF is taught incorrectly you can seriously mess up the dog's career. Force Fetch is one of the basic foundations in training a successful Field Trail dog, along with collar conditioning. I'm sure Sky was taught FF with her Pro.


Barb and Rock

NOT getting into any "NO WIN" debates or responses.... BUT, I do 100% stand by my post!


Barb and Rock

ROCK wrote:
From what I'm reading it seems like there needs to be clarification between a Field Trail and a Hunt Test. Because Field Trails is a whole different game.

If you are talking about Field Trails.... Force Fetch is an absolute must. Without FF as a solid foundation, hang it up. If fact, if FF is taught incorrectly you can seriously mess up the dog's career. Force Fetch is one of the basic foundations in training a successful Field Trail dog, along with collar conditioning. I'm sure Sky was taught FF with her Pro.


Barb and Rock

Sorry Barb we have used the Terms Field Trials and Hunt Tests together I forgot they are two separate things. But, Hunt Tests are just more of a simplified version of a field trial. I think the best example if I am right of a Field Trial Would be the Super retriever Series. Simple mistake but there are a ton of similarities between hunt tests and field trials. The only major difference between a Field Trial and a hunt test is in the Field Trial you are competeing against other dogs with faults for mistakes that count as negative points on your score and with a hunt test you compete to meet the standards of a predetermined set of standards.

Let me ask yall this what do you think .....
Ginger usually wants to put what we are fetching whether it be a bumper or her mallord or a chuckit ball i find she would rather me take it from her in my hand in stead of dropping it at my feet .is that more from a blood line stand point or just me getting lucky that she for the most part would rather me ask her to put it in my hand it is definatley not my traing her to do it

Gingers Dad wrote:Let me ask yall this what do you think .....
Ginger usually wants to put what we are fetching whether it be a bumper or her mallord or a chuckit ball i find she would rather me take it from her in my hand in stead of dropping it at my feet .is that more from a blood line stand point or just me getting lucky that she for the most part would rather me ask her to put it in my hand it is definatley not my traing her to do it

My best guess it is luck, but I know there are those that will most definentley disagree. Does she do a "victory lap" when she returns the dummy to you? Or does she bring it directly to you?

Directly full speed to it full sped bac then i tell her hand and she usually gives it right up if she doesnt i turn away then she gives it to me .The only time she does differently is the moere tired she gets teh less likley she is to want to give it up seh still brings it to me but dosent want to let go

Yes, similar to SRS... but SRS uses DFT's not real birds. Well, up until the last Series. I heard they had some real birds down in FL SRS.

Yes, a MAJOR difference.... running against other dogs vs a set standard. Especially since there are soo many qualified dogs out there and more dogs getting involved in the sport. There's a lot more differences. You answered some other differences yourself.... faults and mistakes.

Also, UKC HRC vs AKC Hunt Tests are different, as well. With AKC Hunt Test... you mess up your done, pack up and call it a day. With UKC HRC if your dog doesn't pass the morning test, you can still run in the afternoon.


Barb and Rock