Agility

Is the 60 weave a normal event at agility or is it mostly an IDC event? I've only seen it at the IDC but that is probably the only agility I have watched on tv.

Kel wrote:Hey Falon,

Which training method are you using on the weaves? There are several out there... so maybe a different one might suit Midas's style better?

Oh, btw, I also sent you a PM about some pics you have on your website I'm hoping I can get the fullsize copies of. Thanks!

We've got the weave poles set up with big spaces, the poles straigh up and down. Then there is rubber tubing looped out so that it forms a "path" for the dog to follow. I was using my hand to lead him through - but when I have to quick switch around a pole, he doesn't like it. Next I had a plastic spoon with PB on it, taped to a long wooden pole, then I can lead him through it with the pole right in front of him. I'm short so I have a hard time reaching over the poles without a tool to help me. I get the impression that he doesn't like them 1. because he doesn't understand the point (he wants to go through the first and last one in a half-circle) and 2. it's slow going and he's fast lol.

I might have to try the peanut butter on the spoon. Jake loves peanut butter.

Okay... so, "Luring" and "Guide wires."

Personally, especially for larger dogs, I would recommend using either the "Channeling" method, or shaping it by teaching the body movement itself using Reward Markers. I've had the most success (both with my own dogs and client's or seminar attendee's dogs) with the last method. It generally results in the most competitive, fast weaving... along with more consistent entries and a dog who really "thinks" and knows the movements.

You have to be careful with channeling, though. If you have a "plow through everything at warp speed" type, it isn't really the best idea. Neither are wires. For a super speed demon with little "self preservation" feelings, I would recommend nothing other than the last method I mentioned.

I've seen some dogs do very well with wires... but a lot of times it creates slower performances. It really varies from team to team.

I personally wouldn't recommend luring at all... at least not in agility. I see way too many handlers and dogs who come to rely on it and have trouble phasing the lure. It can also create problems when phasing into distance work. I try to keep myself out of the picture as much as possible when it comes to luring. I guide with my hand alone on occassion for certain things, but try to avoid luring with food/toys at all costs. I want my dogs to think outside the box and try to figure out "what can I do to make that toy come out? what can I do that will result in an RM and play session?" But, that's just me and my personal preference. It may work well for your dog... don't know, haven't seen your pups work!

A lot of it is going to depend more on your long-term goals with the sport. Do you plan on competing? If so, with what organization(s)? Certain methods tend to fit certain goals better.

Anyway... I'm in the middle of finishing some stuff up, but I will have time tomorrow to get on here and detail out the other two methods if you're interested. I think that, if you're running into some trouble with the luring and wires, the other methods may help.

Of course, every dog is an individual and certain things work better for certain dogs!

The 60 weave pole challenge is a special event. It's not
affiliated with regular trials. As for teaching the weaves, I
used 'weave-a-matics' with Hobie, and it worked well, but for Storm
they aren't the best option. I'm using channel weaves. He
is too big, too strong, too fast, and has too little 'self
preservation' instincts to use the weave-a-matics. He just hits
them so hard they move on him. Wires and such-same thing.
His body just pushes them out of the way and he does what he
wants. Storm isn't afraid of any obstacle and he hits them
hard. He broke three seperate sets of weave-a-matic poles with
his feet before we said enough to that method. Each dog is
different. I could've taught Hobie in any way and he'd be fine,
easy little dog that he is. Storm...well...not so much.
Hobie is soft and very careful with his body. Storm is, well, not.

Kel - I would love to hear more about the Reward Markers technique. Is this something I can work on at home? I just don't want to confront my trainer in front of everyone in class with a different method. I would rather work on it at home and then apply it to class.

Midas is very much the "plow through everything at warp speed" type. The weaves are the only obstacles that we consistently lure on. The only other thing I use treats is occasionally on the pause table and practicing through the collapsed tunnel or chute. I do it on the pause table because of habit and the chute because if I don't remind him to keep his head down - he doesn't and then gets tangled up. Beyond that - the course is what gets him excited and revved up. Last night I had class again and she had a mini-course set up for us to use - no weaves though. I had a target/treats when he came out of the chute, in practice, before we ran the course. But, after that, when actually running the course, he didn't get treats until we completed. Even then I don't think he looks for them. He just enjoys being physical and running fast and doing obstacles lol.

My trainer does a lot through the AKC so I imagine that's where we'll start. I don't really know much about other organizations or how things are done...

[quote="FG167"]Is this something I can work on at home?

Definitely. It's pretty simple to work on at home and you actually need even less room, since you start out using only two poles anyway. You then work up to a full set by adding first one at a time, then two/three... I really prefer this method because it helps create more of a "thinking dog." It requires the dog to figure out the obstacle themselves and also allows you to reward for speed. Channeling is the only other method I've seen as competitive results... but chaneling isn't the best idea for "plow through at warp speed types." I've seen way too many dogs get hung up and take out poles using chanelling because they grow so accustomed to running straight through. It works plenty well for your smaller, lighter built, and/or slower dogs with more of a "self preservation" instint though. But, you can often run into the same issues you do with wires.

I just don't want to confront my trainer in front of everyone in class with a different method. I would rather work on it at home and then apply it to class.

Totally understandable!

The only other thing I use treats is occasionally on the pause table and practicing through the collapsed tunnel or chute.

*Using* treats is fine! I hope it didn't sound like I was discouraging treat use at all... What I have seen problem with is when people use a treat or toy to guide the dog through an obstacle (or even the whole course) start to finish. While luring tends to work well for, say, foundation attention heeling... it tends to create issues with phasing, distance work, etc. in agility. I like to teach my dogs to send out to things from day 1... and I hide the reward while they do it. They learn that, in order for that reward to come out, they need to first figure out and then perform what it is I'm asking for. Then, as time goes on, the obstacles themselves become their own reward and I'll mark one obstacle and use the next as the reward.

I will admit that I'm not a big treat fan for any training besides obedience or other lower key behaviors... but that's just my personal preference. A few toys are cheaper than buying treat bag after treat bag... plus my boys all have crazy toy drive anyway. Well, Scot didn't at first... nor did Baako... but they sure do now after all the work we did on it. I do, however, realize that's not going to be every team's preference, nor what will work best for them. Some dogs are just way more food motivated than they are by toys!

Anyway... regarding RM use with weaves...

I'm not sure how much you know about RMs in general, so I'll explain that a little first. Basically, it's a term that came along with the introduction of clicker training, which is used to "mark" the exact moment where the dog does what is desired. Teaching dog to sit? As soon as the dog's butt hits the floor... "click," "yes!," whatever... to mark the behavior. Timing, of course, is crucial. If you're teaching your dog to touch a plastic lid on the floor with his nose, for example, and you are trying to mark when he shows interest in the lid, in order to build up to the full behavior, but you're late with the marker... and your dog is turning towards you by then... your dog may end up thinking "target" actually means "watch me." Of course, watch is equally useful... just not necessarily what you wanted at the time.

So, to use RMs with weaves I set up the last two poles in the set and start teaching the dog entries. Then I get out the dog's absolute favorite toy/treat in the world and encourage them to check out the poles. Most times, I'll just position them and myself so that they will "accidentally" go through on their own. I'll then mark the behavior (as they are passing halfway through) and reward just past those two poles (so that the dog is continuing down the imaginary line of currently not yet there weaves).

Having a dog who already knows an RM (most commonly used are a verbal "Yes!" or a clicker) is going to make things go much faster. Although, it can be done without any prior RM exposure. Just make sure to reserve whatever word you choose (if you prefer verbal over a clicker, as I generally do) for that use only.

If you want to introduce RMs before using them for weaves, the behavior I would recommend using for that would be targetting (most likely your hand, to start). Let me know if you want details on that...

If the dog just won't go through the poles (say the dog is shy of unusual objects, for example), I start out with only one pole and mark each time the dog goes past the pole with it on his left side.

Generally, once the dog starts getting the idea that "every time I go by this/through these poles, I get a reward," they'll start offering the behavior on their own. Mark and reward that too. The offering just means they're thinking outside the lines and that they have, indeed, gotten the idea you wanted to teach.

Each time they pass through, reward into the next step. Mark the first step (going through the first two), but give the reward at the second step (making them move forward and back the other way as if there were a third pole also present in the base). That way, you're sort of teaching two steps at once, and allowing them (or at least pattern training their body) to think ahead. Then add another pole and mark just past the first set, later than you were at first and reward again through the second entrance. Basically, you just mark and reward later and later each time... so your dog slowly follows the line down. It sounds as if it might take a good deal of time but it really doesn't. Most of my dogs are going through a half-set using this method within only few sessions. And, more importantly, they're doing it without the aid of guidewires or a lure... since the method really encourages thinking and working on their own. Of course, teamwork is important too and is also a major part of the training... but you also want a dog who is willing and able to problem solve, too (and know what you *really* mean when you mess up and call out the wrong name for an obstacle! Lol).

Again, there is nothing wrong with any of the other methods out there. I've seen them used and used them with client's dogs with a good deal of success. But, especially for the aforementioned canine personality type, I really believe this to be a great method to try.

Now, I am rather tired today and I know I didn't explain that too well... lol. So, since seeing the training is generally easier than reading it... I'm going to start teaching my newbie "everything new is kinda scary" boy Scot weaves this week. I'll tape it and use both this method and chanelling. I'll also tape some of Jack and Baako learning with RMs. For Scot, channelling may be best, since if too much pressure is placed on him, he can get upset (he's a rescue with a bad past, so we're always working on building his confidence ). Chanelling takes some guesswork out, so it may be better for him. Jack and Baako have all the confidence in the world though... so no problem there. Lol.

I should be able to post some footage later this week.

Thank you Kel for taking the time.
Chris is getting Banner ready to compete, and weaves are what they are working on, the info is great.

Jim

Was that the longest post ever?

Lol... not even close.

I think probably my longest post was on the very first forum... when I was answering someone's question about how to introduce their dog to water, then transfer to the dock, targetting the toy, etc.

Kel, I think we should print out the training tips you have posted here and staple them together as a booklet and sell them as 'Kel's Training Tips.'

I'd buy it.

Thanks for the agility discussion.

Chris

LOL! Thanks, Jim.

Actually, I'll have a link to post to something else shortly.

I forgot about this thread until I saw it when it got moved to the new section We bought some materials to make some weaves in our backyard tomorrow - I'm totally excited and plan on using Kel's tips for training there and then hopefully be able to apply it in class. I'm also going to start training Mason on the weaves even though he won't be ready for agility for awhile yet.

Very cool. Good luck! You can actually teach weaves that way starting young... which is another reason I like the method. Some other methods can be hard on the dog's joints since the dogs sometimes develop a habit of "slamming through" them. This one emphasizes the "twisty turny" motion though. You still need to be careful, as with any agility obstacle, of course, and young dogs.

Mason is plenty old and big enough to get started in weaves without issue, I'd think though.