Ultimate Dog points

by **Milt** Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:19 pm

This is the way we will do Ultimate Dog points in 2009. Since this is a work in progress it might change in 2010 and possibly tweaked this year.

UV Finals
100points 1st
90 points 2nd and so on if you make finals you will get at least 10 points.
Catch It same as above
Fetch It same as above
Distance jumping each splash counts but points are different 10 1st, 9 2nd and so on.
Distance Finals
100 points 1st
90 2nd and so on make finals you will get 10 points.

We will have 2 divisions: dogs over 21 feet and dogs under 21 feet. To qualify for under 21' you must not have 5 registered jumps over 21' during jumping season.

To get UD points you must compete in at least 2 of the different events that weekend. If you have a dog that can compete in all possible events that weekend you will aquire more points.

by Rajah Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:26 pm

Milt,

instead of giving total points for the year, shouldn't you take the total points of each event and divide it by the number of times competed to get an average? It seems like it should be an average for those that can't make as many events, or can't make the events that have UD.

by jtallen Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:40 pm

YAY on the 2 events in a weekend. Thanks Milt!!!! It makes it fairer, as some events like FI are not offered as often.

I think is should be total points for the year. UD is kinda like "Iron Dog" and should be the dog that jumped the most and did the best over all.

by labpaw Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:57 pm

jtallen wrote:

I think is should be total points for the year. UD is kinda like "Iron Dog" and should be the dog that jumped the most and did the best over all.

So if I wanted to participiate in UD (which we have not), I have to drive to Michigan/Ohio to be slightly competitive just because I geographically am at a disadvantage and do not have as many events to chose from? What if my dog was capable of 6'8" UV, 18' FI, 43'+ on CI, and consistently jumped 23' or higher? None of my dogs do that, personally, but I am making a point. So just because that dog doesn't live in the great state of MI where a lot of the events are held, there is no chance that dog would even be close to being competitve. Is that really what you are suggesting?

EDIT: With the current schedule as of today, out of the 28 events starting from January 1st, 2009, 13 are in the state of Michigan, and 4 more are close driving distances. So more than half of the events are more easily accessible for people in the Michigan area (I realize it is a big state, and they aren't all next door, but I am just pointing out how geography shouldn't play a role in this). The other 11 events are spread from Florida to Tennessee, to North Carolina, etc. And out of the 5 newly determined double UD point events, 4 of them are in... Michigan. I'm not begrudging those in MI. We would all like to be that fortunate to have that many events in relative close proximity. But if I drive 6+ hours to a UAD event, and my dog has scores like the ones listed above, that dog will never accumulate the number of points that MI residents have the potential to. Even if I took all my vacation to do so, it wouldn't be feasible.

NOTE: This is all hypothetical, as none of my dogs are competiting in FI or UV, so I am not making these points on a selfish basis. But if the goal of UAD is to allow more people to compete, then it only stands to reason that someone who can do nothing about the geography involved, should at least be considered competitive if at all possible.

by Rajah Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:17 pm

jtallen wrote:YAY on the 2 events in a weekend. It makes it fairer, as some events like FI are not offered as often.

I think is should be total points for the year. UD is kinda like "Iron Dog" and should be the dog that jumped the most and did the best over all.

In reality, it should be based on each event. In other words, how well does your dog hold up over the course of jumping throughout one weekend. Lets say you hvae a dog that jumps over 23 feet all weekend and puts him in the top, but by the time finals rolls around, he might only be jumping 20' (or less) because he is getting tired from jumping UV, or Catch it, or Fetch It. That's a true "iron dog" as you put it. So if we went this way, we could do an average over the year to get the true consistency of each dog, not just because one dog went to more events than another dog.

by bectayjam Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:25 pm

I understand what ya'll are saying. We live in Florida and can't make events up north so we only get 1 maybe 2 events that offer UD. It should be concidered by how much the dog impoves over the course of the year. OR maybe have a UD for each jumping catagory. Such as one for UV, CI, FI and for the splash. Then no one would be left out. Then there could be 1 choosen as the winner from those. Just my thoughts.

by Rajah Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:25 pm

Just to add one more thought:

It is an uneven balance of events if we take the total points on the years as well. For example, UV may be available at 12 UD events, while Fetch It! might only be available at 8 events. This gives the UV dogs 4 extra possible events which adds up to a lot more points than a Fetch It dog.

by labpaw Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:26 pm

Rajah wrote:

In reality, it should be based on each event. In other words, how well does your dog hold up over the course of jumping throughout one weekend. Lets say you hvae a dog that jumps over 23 feet all weekend and puts him in the top, but by the time finals rolls around, he might only be jumping 20' (or less) because he is getting tired from jumping UV, or Catch it, or Fetch It. That's a true "iron dog" as you put it. So if we went this way, we could do an average over the year to get the true consistency of each dog, not just because one dog went to more events than another dog.

Absolutely.

by Angela Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:03 pm

See what you get for adding more, Milt? Ultimate Air Elation

While I agree that you don't want to just hand Michiganders such a huge advantage just because events are much more accessible, I can see the point of rewarding teams that participate as much as they can. Perhaps there can be a middle ground. Maybe average points and pick a "doable" minimum number of events.
People will need to choose between this and taking finals in some cases- but hey, that's life.

by jtallen Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:14 pm

A dog that jumps all events and is tired in finals would have same handicap as all the other dogs jumping for UD. A dog that is jumping just UA won't be as tired and might win the division, but since they are not competeing in UD, the UD dogs would all be down one placing, and still would place in the same relationship to each other.
I think Milt's idea is to reward the dog that jumps in at least three of the four (UA,UV,CI,FT) and jumps consistantly all year.
Do you think that a dog that jumps in say 3,4,5 events should win UD over a dog that jumps in say 20 events?

Alisa
I understand the location issue for people who are not in the Midwest.
I know Milt is trying very hard to get more events in the East and South. So all of you in those areas need to help find events. I know he rewards people who give him leads for events that he gets - ask Barb

by Phoenix Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:04 pm

Milt probably reads all this and thinks "geesh I can never win" lol.

I was thinking about this today. Here is my suggestion and it may not mean a darn thing but hey I am going to say it anyway :-)

What if we mirrored in a sense how UKC does things at dog shows? For example on a weekend where there is a weight pull and conformation show at the same time a dog can earn a "Total Dog" award for that weekend. Annie did it the first time we tried it with her and it was sooooo exciting to get that extra ribbon!

Why not try something out to get our "feet wet" with this idea and call it something like a "Super Dog" award. Here is how I was thinking it could work. All dogs have to compete at least in distance jumping. Then the handler can choose if the dog competes in at least one more of the other three possible events (CI, UV, FI).

So for example Rajah would compete in UA then later in the weekend compete in CI. Now the kicker would be that with CI he would have to have a qualifying score to get his award. Meaning with CI at least make one catch. And you have all seen that there have been a few times where he hasn't gotten either.

Same with UV-at least one clean grab
Same with FI- at least on clean grab

Then as the year goes on you could do a "UAD Title" of sorts (making more work for Scott :-) ) That after earning say 5 "Super Dog" awards they earn a UAD Super Dog Title. Then at the end of the "season" maybe there could be a splash for just the super dogs to duke it out for top Super Dog of each division (Junior, Senior, Master and Ultimate). I am not sure how exactly that last part would work but up til that it seems pretty easy to do. It may also mean possibly paying $5 extra per event to cover the extra ribbon cost if you wanted to participate in Super Dog for that weekend. But then we could have the "nicer" ribbons that are a little bigger on maybe.

Once again just a thought. And Milt may read this and say "pish posh" on that and that is cool. But I wanted to throw it out there. This way no matter where you live you can compete toward a Super Dog.

by wrigley Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:39 pm

I thought the intent of UD was to have an UD per event. Then there would be a UD for the entire year. However, it may be tough to crunch the number while at the event. Excel is pretty good though.

I think UD should be a reward for a dog that jumps at many events. For those that are not in Mich or nearby are just at a disadvantage, I am one of them. Sure I am in Indiana but I am in the southwest corner. It is an 8 hour drive to Detroit for us. I know about and understand this disadvantage. It just means that I need to get to more events if I want to be in the running.

Maybe one way to even out the disadvantage is to say only your top 5 events count towards UD standings. That would help out those that have to travel far but would hurt those that make a ton of events. 5 is just a number off my head.

I loved the idea of having the top x dogs in the UD standings compete against each other at the end of the year. That would be cool. Do all the events right in a row. Only rest is waiting in line for your turn. They don't take breaks in the Iron Man.

The only thing I don't like is only needing to compete in two events. I really think it should be a 3 event min.

Anyway, the best thing to do is to keep it simple. With that being said maybe there could be a mileage ratio for those that have to drive Ultimate Air Elation

by labpaw Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:15 pm

My point is not to complain about how few events we have here, nor is it to complain about how many are in Michigan. With all the great events you have out there, I would be hard pressed to get events in this area at the same time regardless, especially in this economy. As for driving to Michigan for more events, been there and done that. Minimum of 14 hours one way. And with the new rule in effect, there is very little chance I am going to be doing that again anytime soon.

My point is that if a dog, say from VA, FL, or NY or where ever, consistently out jumps, grabs, and catches in 5 events what another dog does even over 20 events, then yes, I believe that dog should outrank for UD. Just because there isn't the same number of events in the area as there is for someone in Michigan, that dog should be penalized? I thought that the UAD mantra is to allow more people to be involved with the sport?

I like the idea of the top 4 or 5 UD scores counting towards a UD ranking, so to speak. If you really want to participate, and it is worth it to you to make the drive etc, then that is the decision of the long distance travelers to do so. Those of you that are close have more of an opportunity to improve your average and therefore your standings.

As for dogs being tired, yes, that is a possibility. I feel as Angela does, that it is a choice each team needs to make, depending on what their goals are. Be the UD, or focus on one discipline?

As for Scott adding another title to his responsibilities, I'm not sure that will happen. But, I can't speak for him, and that is something that he will certainly decide for himself.

by Kel Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:31 pm

I've basically given up on the possibility of going for UD this year... so I don't really care anymore what direction the rules fall for now.

I can, however, see a lot of good points and input made in this thread... a lot that makes good sense and I can support and agree with.

My only suggestion would be to make some of the SMALLER attendance events double-point events, in order to help encourage more teams to compete at those events. Making the largest events double-point events is fine, but I think it might help UAD more to get more teams at the smaller events than more at those that are already off the scale in numbers. Just a thought. Sweet!

by Angela Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:21 pm

I do not think anyone like Alisa or Kel feel that they should be able to come for one or two events and take it all. But it is a financial and logistical hardship to get three or more dogs to many events and get in enough jumps when they must travel much greater distances than most.
I do like that idea of using the top weekends' (say 5- it doesn't have
to be that number- but it does sound "doable) scores. I think this can
be worked out to include out-of-state big jumping dogs while still
being fair to those who come to many events because they live closer.
If the whole point is to get people to attend a greater number of events and to spend more money on more activities, then saying tough luck for you out-of-state people, go get your own events, is fine. But I think this is more about bragging rights for the participants, not who can rack up the most by attending the most.

by jtallen Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:07 pm

Angela wrote:. saying tough luck for you out-of-state people, go get your own events, is fine.

Not what I was saying at all.
I was saying that Milt is really trying hard to get more events closer to those of you who live away from Mich and that if you know of an event let him know.
I NEVER meant to suggest "too bad" to those who live out-of state in any way.

by Intellabs Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:33 pm

I attended my first UAD event may of 2008 and JT Knew I was a newbie and was extremely helpful. I have never known him not to be looking out for anyones best interests and that goes for UAD'ers from out of state.

by ROCK Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:39 pm

Intellabs wrote:I attended my first UAD event may of 2008 and JT Knew I was a newbie and was extremely helpful.

Hah, That's just because Jim had no friends Golly Gee!

JUST KIDDING around Laugin' out loud!

Barb

by **team sky** Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:09 pm

Milt wrote:This is the way we will do Ultimate Dog points in 2009. Since this is a work in progress it might change in 2010 and possibly tweaked this year.

UV Finals
100points 1st
90 points 2nd and so on if you make finals you will get at least 10 points.
Catch It same as above
Fetch It same as above
Distance jumping each splash counts but points are different 10 1st, 9 2nd and so on.
Distance Finals
100 points 1st
90 2nd and so on make finals you will get 10 points.

We will have 2 divisions: dogs over 21 feet and dogs under 21 feet. To qualify for under 21' you must not have 5 registered jumps over 21' during jumping season.

To get UD points you must compete in at least 2 of the different events that weekend. If you have a dog that can compete in all possible events that weekend you will aquire more points.

Details, Details, Details.

Ideas for 2010

Maybe to satisfy the out of staters we could set up classes like a conformation show. That way you only need a bare minnimum number of points to compete for the title of iron dog. For Example:

Ultimate Division 1 title: 1000 points minimum - 2000 points max
Ultimate Division 2 title: 2000 points minimum - 3000 points max
Ultimate Division 3 title: 3000 points minimum - etc... Repeat for all the divisions.

Then to make it fair for peple that can only make a certain number of events you can allow Ultimate Division 1 dogs to compete against each other and end with a final Ultimate division 1 ultimate dog. Then you repeat for all Ultimate divisions. Then after you complete with say Ultimate division 4 title you then have the champion of each ultimate division compete against each other similar to a conformation show. (1st puppy, under 2, adult, grand champion then after they compete against everyone in their division the tops from each division compete against eachother.)

rofl

or...... or.....

by **Milt** Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:58 pm

I like this conversation keep it going!!!! I'm learning things! LET'S EVERYONE keep it civil. This is a sounding board to see everyone's thoughts!

by Kel Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:53 pm

I'm guessing you're just joking around in that last post, Brian? Actually, as of now, it's more like conformation Top Ten (UKC) judging than what you're proposing. The Top Ten dogs aren't always the best in the whole org, nor are they necessarily in the "right order," so to speak, by how much they match the breed standard. Rather, the most often shown dog, with only a fair win percentage, can often end up ranked above a dog who does very well at fewer events. Honestly, I'd rather stay away from conformation similarities as much as possible... but maybe that's just me. Lol.

Anyway, I think a minimum number of events could be set, as was proposed in some of the earlier threads discussing this topic. I think five is a good number... some might not be able to make even that, but I still think it's a nice, fair number everyone could probably agree to. Or you could just use the top five events per team, no matter how many events they've made throughout the year.

Again, I have no intention or hopes for going for UD this year, given several factors. So, anything I might suggest is more aimed at tweaks to the system/rules throughout the year or for changes towards next year's setup.

by Kel Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:56 pm

Furthermore, I really appreciate Milt's positive response to all this... I'm glad that this is an organization where the input of the competitor's and their suggestions for improvement are noted and taken into consideration. Sweet!

by Angela Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:31 am

OK, thank you Jim. I've always known you to be friendly and helpful (so I was shocked at how your post sounded). Glad it was a misunderstanding.

by jtallen Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:46 am

Barb,
I still don't rofl

One thing to remeber UAD is a mMchigan based organization. As such the cost of doing business is lower the closer to home its work is. An event in GA or NY costs a lot more (Travel, gas, hotel, food, expenses) and reduces the ability to make a profit. Take what it costs for you to come to Mich to attend an event and multiply it be several times.

I think Milt is really trying hard to expand UAD's activities all along the East coast and in the mid-west.
But since UAD is out of Mich. it is to be expected that they might do more around here.

At one time I had heard that a dock and pool might be bought and placed out east (Barb?) and allow for more events on the East coast, as they wouldn't have to haul the rig out each time, saving that cost. I expect the economy might have put that on hold, but if more events could be found it might make sense.

by **team sky** Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:58 am

Milt wrote:I like this conversation keep it going!!!! I'm learning things! LET'S EVERYONE keep it civil. This is a sounding board to see everyone's thoughts!

Thanks Milt for even letting us discuss this on the board. It amazes me to see all of the different perspectives. Exclamation

28 days and we get to jump outside!!!!!!!!!! Ultimate Air Elation

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